cjlasky7: (Default)
[personal profile] cjlasky7
Sony, burned by the lackluster response to X-Men: Apocalypse, has decided to go back to the epic plotline that turbocharged X-Men fanaticism back in the 70s: Dark Phoenix.

All of the First Class squad has apparently re-signed (including Jennifer Lawrence!), and rumor has it that Jessica Chastain will play her highness, Majestrix Lilandra of the Shi'Ar Empire.

When in doubt, go back to the classics.

Date: 2017-06-14 09:57 pm (UTC)
dlgood: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dlgood
As someone who watches many of these movies, and isn't hugely versed in the actual comics... as a viewer I don't necessarily care what storylines they pick. (Although if I never see Bruce Wayne's parents get shot again, it'll be too soon...)

I think it's, whatever arc you pick, tell stories about characters. Give these actors things to do... XMen Apocalypse didn't work as well for me because I couldn't grab the characters in the way I could in other movies. And I know we see these for the big action set pieces that don't need to be translated for international markets... but they still work best when there are stories.

Date: 2017-06-16 02:04 am (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat
Considering how badly they screwed it up the last time around with X-Men Last Stand. It was so bad, that they found a way of undoing it with Day's of Future Past. (Seriously the last film had Wolverine saving the day, and Wolverine had no business doing that. And Summers was killed with barely a howdee-do along with Xavier and various others. Just no.)

They actually may be improving on the story a bit.

Date: 2017-06-16 02:01 am (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat
I'd agree on all of the above.

The best X-Men film that I've seen to date was X-Men: Days of Future Past , because it did a good job of building character and plot, and was less focused on F/X hijinks. Also had complex villains, with a bit more ambiguity. (Note I have not seen Logan, although that's not a team story.)

The Phoenix Storyline is similar to Days of Future Past. Both are classics, due to the fact that they build on character, have rather personalized or ambiguous villains, and difficult social-political issues. There's more story-building and less emphasis on fight scenes.

Also, I'm hoping we've moved past the Bruce Wayne origin story finally. Batman like Superman has unfortunately been overdone.

They are doing interesting things with the X-men though. Have you seen "Legion" -- it's really good.

Date: 2017-06-16 02:20 am (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat
I'd read that they were doing Dark Phoenix. Which is when I fell head over heels in love with the X-men, and Scott Summers and Jean Grey became my favorite comic characters. Have yet to see either represented well on-screen. I have my hopes that this may change soon. I wasn't into comics before then. Never read them. Thought they were silly books about people with powers fighting silly villains - a la Saturday Morning Cartoons. There was no depth. They were the things my brother drew with his friend for hours at a time, while I drew my own characters. (My brother was meticulous, he would draw these tiny action figures. Movement however was an issue -- couldn't quite capture that.)

Then my freshman year of college, I ran into this gal in the lounge watching reruns of Star Trek. A group of us would watch Star Trek reruns and Trek The Next Generation after classes or in the evenings. And she started talking about the X-men. Told me the story. Then we'd go up to her room and she'd pull out the issues and I'd spend hours with her reading them. Enthralled. She had the Dark Phoenix story and lent it to me. I was so in love with it -- I went to comic book store and spent money buying back issues. The characters were outsiders, complicated, geeky, not-mainstream, and ...well it spoke to me. And I found all these friends at school who loved them. One RA would spend hours talking about and analyzing each character.

So, yeah, that's the story most X-men fans fell in love with. It did have it's issues though. The ret-con regarding it being the Phoenix Force and not really Jean's power, then later Jean's. The Maddie Clone. That her power wasn't hers. And how weak she was. The somewhat skeevy teacher/student love interest going on with Xavier and Jean, that felt almost Freudian.

But it was so complicated. And so well done in some ways, you could handwave the rest. And Summer's arc after...which in some ways goes down the same twisty road.

I hope they do it well. They got a good Jean in Sophie Turner (she's impressive in Game of Thrones), a great cast so far. Tye Sheridan...may actually work as Scott. Although he should be a lot taller. But he's also still a teen at this stage. And if all the original cast of X-Men First Class has signed along with X-men Apocalypse...that could work well. Particularly, with the White Queen and the Hellfire Club.

They are doing interesting things over at Fox with the X-men franchise. More interesting than the comics are doing. Legion.
Gifted. And soon, The New Mutants -- which is being done as a horror film not a superhero film, I find that fascinating.
They are also going back to the hey-day of the comics -- when I was in love with them. 1970s-1990s.

Date: 2017-06-16 12:31 pm (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat

Agreed. I was thinking about it last night...and it's a complicated story that was built up over 36 issues and over time. It evolved. And there were a lot of interlocking sub-plots. I wish they could take the time to build it in the same way that they did the Avengers Civil War story -- which was built over about five or six movies. And that story wasn't nearly as complicated.

I think this will probably be simplified. They set up in Apocalypse that she has a lot of power but is afraid of it and not sure how to control it. Her power almost eclipsed Apocalypse. And she showed that she could help Cyclops control his optic blast, which even Xavier couldn't quite do. In the comics, she didn't have that type of power right off the bat, they sort of had to do a lot of work to give it to her and retcon it. Also, they've already established a bond between her and Scott.

Here, we have Mystique in the works, and Magneto not as clearly a villain, so that is different. And Beast is a bit older, Angel isn't part of the team, nor is Iceman. Different dynamic -- closer in some respects to the X-men team at the time.

What they can do is have it happen without it being triggered by another event, and have the Hellfire Club manipulate her. (in other words, skip over the comics 1-20, and start somewhere around the time Emma Frost and what's his name from the Hellfire Club start playing with Jean's mind. If the whole cast from First X-Men comes back that may include the Hellfire Club. Introduce Illyria when she goes nuts and becomes a galatic threat.)

It can be truncated. There's a lot of filler and subplots in that story that aren't really required.

Date: 2017-06-16 02:25 pm (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat

What they should do is a two-parter. Part one - the Hellfire Club, Part II - the space opera.

ie. ignore the whole stuff prior to Hellfire Club. Do the Hellfire Club as movie one, with her going all Dark Phoenix, killing a world, then pulled back by Xavier, but the Shiar showing up to prosecute as the cliff-hanger. Then part two, her trial, and the space opera as movie two. They could do a cross-over with Guardians of the Galaxy at that point. (Assuming the two movie studios can get past their egos long enough to work together.)

Date: 2017-06-16 03:41 pm (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat

There's almost no way they can do it, then without a three-part movie then. First movie the space opera, cliff-hanger with Phoenix saving them when they return to Earth, and the tearful goodbye between Xavier and Illyria. Second movie - the Hellfire Club manipulation, Phoenix becoming Dark Phoenix. Third movie -- the trial on Shiar with cross-over with GotG.

They have tried to do the saga on television a few times via animation. It's never worked very well. They leave out the whole Hellfire Club bit or the whole Shiiar bit.

I don't know how they'll be able to do a movie. You'd have to lose some of the ambiguity.

They did manage to do Days of Future Past -- but it was actually easier to adapt. And in some respects the adaptation worked better, made more sense for Wolverine to travel backwards than Kitty Pryde.

Date: 2017-06-16 07:03 pm (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat

They can't really do some of it. For one thing -- in the Apocalypse movie, Scott's parents appeared to be alive, Alex was the one he lost. (Although they could clarify that the parents are actually his adopted parents) but there's no abandonment issues in the movie versions for Summers, just younger bro-big bro hero worship issues, except with the brother's reversed. Alex is the older brother here, not the younger one.

Also, I think they can only afford one or two more films, not sure. If I were them, I'd do the three film bit. But they may not feel they have the audience for it.

Summers had a bigger role in the comics than you are giving him here. (Am I and Whedon the only ones who like Summers?)

Anyhow, they could truncate it. Start with Hellfire Club, end with Space Opera. Not kill Jean. And not kill planet of peaceful people (which, ahem, some of us actually did care about).

Date: 2017-06-16 07:30 pm (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat

Got more information, apparently Jessica Chastin is in talks to play the "villain" Lillalandra from the Shi'iar Empire.

From Polygot:

Jessica Chastain is reportedly in talks for the role of Empress Lilandra, ruler of the Shi’ar, and will be the main villain of the film, a curious label when she and Professor X were quite the item for many years in the comics.

Also it takes place in 1990. (X-men First Class/X-men Days of Future Past - 1960s, X-men- Apocalypse was 1980). And the new director is not Singer but Simon Kinberg, who wrote the script. It's bringing back pretty much everyone from X-men Apocalypse not First Class, except for Jackman (so no Wolverine, thank god).

My bet is it will be the scenario I predicted. Hellfire Club -- with Shi'iar over-reacting. Or no Hellfire Club and just space opera. They struck out a bit with Emma Frost in the first movie...

Date: 2017-06-17 12:19 am (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat
Haven't seen the Disappearance of Eleanor Rigby. (Yoo've seen more adult movies than you've let on in the last couple of years.)

I have a feeling she's going to be a villain somewhat in the same way that Magneto and Mystique have been. Also if it's the Phoenix Saga, more an antagonist.

Keep in mind my theory. That what they may do is have Jean get manipulated or lose control or something...and end up pissing off Lillandra and the Shi'iar Empire, hello judgement day. Except, they probably won't take it as far as Chris Claremount did. (he lived to regret that decision because it was impossible to really bring her back from that. Just as years later they regretted the decisions they made with certain other characters which were difficult to bring back from that. Fans are crazy -- apparently Cyclops (of all people) is the Most Hated Character in the Marvel Fandom. So, proof, fans are crazy. And why I've stuck clear of comic book fandom.)

[Tye Sheridan (Cyclops) career is taking off, his next role is the lead in Speilberg's adaptation of Ready Player One.]

I think that she'll go "dark phoenix" piss of Shi'iar Empire, Illandra will pop up to condemn her, and that's why she's the villain. Remember what you said, if we skip the front-matter, it makes Illandra less sympathetic?

Date: 2017-06-19 07:14 pm (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat


Sigh. Where to start?

You can try this link: www.looper.com/49409/cyclops-became-hated- character-marvel http://www.bing.com/search?q=cyclops+most+hated+character&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IENTTR&conversationid=&adlt=strict#

I'd say the hatred began after the whole possession by Apocalypse, followed by what Scarlett Witch did, which lead to the Messiah War arc in the late part of 2013 or there abouts, with the split of the team, and finally Cyclops inhabiting the Phoenix Force and killing Professor Xavier in Xmen vs. Avengers.

But people actually disliked him before then. He was dull. A jerk. Not interesting. Too much a boy-scout. too alpha male. Not sensitive enough. Daddy issues. Etc. (eye-roll)

They preferred the over-done Wolverine, who had been ret-conned so many times even the character didn't know who he was. Or Loki. Or Magneto. Or Angel. Or fill in the blank. (sigh).

Then the writers decided to take him on the most insane character arc I've ever seen -- which yanked me back into comics, because I wanted to see if they pulled it off. To take Cyclops a follower of Xavier's world-view to the exact opposite extreme, Magneto's. BTW? They pulled it off, raising all sorts of interesting philosophical and moral questions, but ...then the writers changed, the new one wimped out, killed off the character in really stupid way, because they hit a brick wall and didn't know what to do next, which yanked me out of the comics forever. They also sort of destroyed a few other characters in the process, and killed off Xavier permanently.

Sigh. Comic book writers. Sigh. Moments of brilliance in the midst of really bad writing.

Date: 2017-06-19 10:41 pm (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat
Here's a better link:

Or here:


This explains the crazy hypocritical-judgmental fans.

Date: 2017-06-16 02:27 pm (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat

But alas, they will probably try to cram it all into one movie...that's my problem with action movies -- too frigging busy. The problem is they are afraid of boring the video gamer ADD audience. It's annoying.


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